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Thu 30
Apr 2009

I have read about you in Wikipedia. You died in 1982. Is that a problem for you?

Posted by dora under William Holden's diary
21 Comments

Conversation between Michael Hierholzer (journalist), Wonge Bergmann (photographer), both of them working for the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, a German major national newspaper, and William Holden.

MH: Although it is not a simple story, because…
WB: Yes, one needs a lot of time (laugh)
MH: Exactly, one needs a lot of time.
WH: There are many hidden angles. I have already noticed that is not a project that one just comes across, but…
MH, WB: Exactly!
WH: One has to follow it.
MH: Yes, that's it, yes. I have read about you in Wikipedia. You died in 1982. Is that a problem for you?
WH: No, Is it for you?
MH: No, if it isn't for you, just curious about how it is like, practically, to move around being a corpse.
WH: Totally painless, since I am not real.
MH: Oh, I understand.
WH: Besides, the congruence between me and Mr. Holden…
WB: Would you like to have a coffe?… escuse me.
MH: (nods)
WB: I'll order.
WH: If it is not too much trouble, I'd like to have one as well.

Later on, our three conversators will discuss about different types of coffee and their names depending in the different German cities, strawberry cakes, strawberries, and even later on Hermann Hesse, Bertolt Brecht, Herrn Daschner and the Jewish community in Frankfurt. Please check the audio blog at the end of the German text (audio in German):

Gespräch mit Michael Hierholzer (schreibender Journalist) und Wonge Bergmann (Foto-Journalist, beide F.A.Z.)

[… ]

Michael Hierholzer: Obwohl es keine einfache Geschichte ist, weil so …
Wonge Bergmann: Man muss viel Zeit haben. [Lacht]
Michael Hierholzer: Man muss viel Zeit haben, genau.
William Holden: Es ist auch viel versteckt. Es ist mir ja schon aufgefallen, es … es ist kein Projekt, das einem entgegen kommt, dem…
Michael Hierholzer, Wonge Bergmann: Genau! Genau!
William Holden: … man muss ihm hinterherlaufen.
Michael Hierholzer: So ist es, jaja!
Michael Hierholzer: Ich hab jetzt über Sie gelesen in Wikipedia, dass Sie 1982 schon gestorben sind. Ist dass nicht ein bisschen ein Problem für Sie?
William Holden: Nein, für Sie?
Michael Hierholzer: An und für sich nicht, nein, nur wie gehen Sie damit um, also – praktisch da als Toter geführt zu werden.
William Holden: Das ist insofern für mich schmerzfrei, da ich Fiktion bin.
Michael Hierholzer: Ok … verstehe.
William Holden: Deshalb ist es … ist die Übereinstimmung von mir und dem Herrn Holden…
Wonge Bergmann: Möchtest du, Sie, Kaffee? – Entschuldigung.
Michael Hierholzer: [nickt]
Wonge Bergmann: Ich kümmere mich darum.
William Holden: Wenn sie so freundlich wären, ich würde auch so einen...
Wonge Bergmann: Einen ganz normalen?
William Holden: So einen ganz normalen Omakaffee. Ja. Den nennt man übrigens jetzt, den Omakaffee. Das finde ich sehr schön.
Michael Hierholzer: Nennt man den so jetzt?
William Holden: Nein, ich nannte den immer Omakaffee.
Michael Hierholzer: Verstehe. Ich sach immer Plörre dazu.
William Holden: Plörre?
Michael Hierholzer: Plörre. Ja.
William Holden: Sacht man das hier so, oder?
Michael Hierholzer: Nein dit is eigentlich Berlinerisch.
William Holden: Wollte ich sagen.
1. Das ist so ein Berliner Slang
William Holden: [mäßig interessiert] Ja… [mit mehr Emphase] das heißt jetzt in den Coffee-Bars…
Michael Hierholzer: Da heißt das jetzt Omakaffee?
William Holden: Nein das heißt jetzt Kaffee Americano.
Michael Hierholzer: Ach verstehe.
William Holden: Das finde ich schön.
Michael Hierholzer: Das ist schön stimmt. Aber ich vermute, wenn ich hier einen Americano bestelle, dass sie nicht wissen, was das ist, weil…
Wonge Bergmann: Ich würde das auch lassen, weil das ein Schwachsinns-Begriff ist.
Michael Hierholzer: Findest du? Ach nö, so ich meine...
Wonge Bergmann: Großer Brauner kann ich noch verstehen, aber Americano ist dann irgendwann zu Ende.
William Holden: Nun gut es ist das Land des Filterkaffees, das muss man so sagen.
Michael Hierholzer: Ja, aber der amerikanische Kaffee ist ja normalerweise noch viel dünner als unserer.
William Holden: Ja, und vor allem koffeinfrei.
Michael Hierholzer: Genau! Jaja.
William Holden: Das sagt da nur keiner.
Michael Hierholzer: Decaffed, jaja. Mittlerweile haben sie in Amerika ja auch besseren Kaffee und auch besseres Bier, das war ja früher irgendwie alles dünner.
William Holden: Ja…
Michael Hierholzer: Ich weiß nicht was Sie eher schätzen. Also mehr die amerikanische Art oder unsere.
Wonge Bergmann: Der Herr hätte gerne noch so eine Tasse Kaffee.
Bedienung: Kaffee.
Wonge Bergmann: Und du?
Michael Hierholzer: Ich nehm einen Latte Macciato.
Wonge Bergmann: Und ich hätte gerne [überlegt] einen Cappuccino. Und haben Sie ein Stück Erdbeerk… [unterbricht sich selbst, dann etwas verlegen] tööörtchen?
Bedienung: Ja, einmal?
Wonge Bergmann: Ja.
Bedienung: Ja.
Wonge Bergmann: Gut!
Michael Hierholzer: [spöttelnd, schmunzelnd dann etwas lachend] Erdbeertörtchen am frühen Morgen.
Wonge Bergmann: Ich bin so selten in so traditionellen Café-Häusern, da MUSS ich einfach Erdbeertörtchen essen.
William Holden: [verständnisvoll] Ja.
Michael Hierholzer: Leider haben sie vor ein paar Jahren das hier alles umgemodelt. Das war noch bis vor fünf Jahren original so wie Adorno es liebte. Der saß hier nämlich stundenlang vor einem Kirschlikör und hat Hof gehalten. Dann kamen seine Studenten und er hat dann mit ihnen gesprochen und saß stundenlang vor [betont] einem Kirschlikör.
William Holden: Es ist interessant, dass sie diese Formulierung wählen, denn das war mein erster Eindruck, als ich hier reinkam. Also ich bin zuerst einmal vorbeigelaufen, das war schon das Erste und auf dem Weg zurück, ich war dann irgendwann bei den 70er Hausnummern und merkte das ist zu weit und dacht' mir für so einen überzeugten Demokraten sieht das sehr aristokratisch aus.
Michael Hierholzer: Er hat ja auch was sehr aristokratisches gehabt, er liebt ja den Umgang mit dem Adel und spielte sehre gerne auch vierhändig Klavier aber nur mit Adelsangehörigen. Er hatte da so einen kleinen Tick.
William Holden: Aha.
Michael Hierholzer: Das sind so die Anekdoten, die man sich erzählt.
William Holden: Ja.
Michael Hierholzer: Die sind überraschenderweise in Frankfurt noch sehr lebendig.
William Holden: Aha.
Michael Hierholzer: So in bestimmten Kreisen. Er war ja auch ein großer Freund des Zoos und hat an Herrn **Cimmeck, dessen hundertsten Geburtstag wir jetzt gerade feiern, mal einen Brief geschrieben, er wünsche sich unbedingt für den Frankfurter Zoo einen Wombat. Also dieses, [sucht nach Worten] dieses...
William Holden: ...diese australischen Knuddeltiere.
Michael Hierholzer: Das australische Knuddeltier, da – weil das hatte er irgendwann mal in seiner Jugend gesehen und so … aus heiterem Himmel fiel ihm das wohl wieder mal ein und hat also in einem berühmten Brief an **Cimmeck Verbesserungsvorschläge für den Frankfurter Zoo gemacht. Also das finde ich doch…
William Holden: Mhm.
Michael Hierholzer: Er hat seine Frau auch nur „Du altes Nilpferd“ genannt. [Korrigiert sich] „Du alte Nilpferdstute“ sagte er immer zu Ihr. Also er hatte so eine komische Beziehung immer auch zu Tieren. Was man ihm eigentlich…
Wonge Bergmann: [unterbricht] Ist hier auch die Heimstadt des Rowohlt Verlages während der Buchmesse.
William Holden: Ja?
Michael Hierholzer: Stimmt, jaja! … ach hier, das Laumer, jaja genau.
Wonge Bergmann: Das heißt dann Café Rowohlt.
William Holden: Ach, das ist hier…
Michael Hierholzer: Das ist hier … ja…
Wonge Bergmann: In der Zeit findet hier … wie soll man sagen … ein etwas anderes Leben statt.
Michael Hierholzer: Ja, ja.
William Holden: Ja.
Wonge Bergmann: Bisschen. Tagsüber ist das ganz ok, aber abends schlagen die hier hemmungslos zu.
William Holden: Hier? Das heißt was? Sie grinsen jetzt so vielsagend.
Michael Hierholzer: Allehol?
Wonge Bergmann: Na, ich sach mal, ein anderes Klientel…
William Holden: Verstehe…
Wonge Bergmann: …findet dann hier …
William Holden: Weniger gesittet?
Wonge Bergmann: Gesittet ist ja immer relativ.
William Holden: Jooa … ich mein' die Sitten orientieren sich meist am Promillespiegel.
Michael Hierholzer: Genau! Genau!
Wonge Bergmann: Das ist alkoholisierter, buchmessenmäßig…
William Holden: ..ach so, dann während Café Rowohlt, verstehe, das ist hier also … chill out …
Wonge Bergmann: …jaja, nur mehr …
William Holden: … das literarische chill out…
Wonge Bergmann: Chill out würde ich das nicht nennen…
William Holden: Rowolt wird das dann erst in 30 Jahren so nennen.
Michael Hierholzer: Chill-Out-Café!
Wonge Bergmann: Wenn ich kurz unterbrechen darf, ihr verpasst hier ein Mörder-Teil, das ist für diese Saison, ich meine wir sind eigentlich in der [unverständlich, vermutlich: Wimbledon] Zeit des Jahres.
Michael Hierholzer: Sag mal, Junge, es gibt doch noch gar keine deutschen Erdbeeren.
Wonge Bergmann: Das sind deutsche Erdbeeren!
Michael Hierholzer: Das?
Wonge Bergmann: Aber hallo.
Michael Hierholzer: Das sind spanische Erdbeeren.
Wonge Bergmann: Nein.
3. Woran…
Michael Hierholzer: Die schmecken nach Chemie…. Gar nicht, ich nehm´s mal einfach an. Deutsche Erdbeeren? Mit dem kräftigen deutschen Geschmack?
Wonge Bergmann: In Frankreich ist zum Beispiel…
Michael Hierholzer: Ich hab letztens Erdbeeren gegessen, die schmeckten nach Gurken.
William Holden: Nein!
Michael Hierholzer: Doch.
Wonge Bergmann: Ja stimmt, das waren die ersten ausländischen.
William Holden: Die ersten, die kommen aus Spanien
Wonge Bergmann: Wegen des hohen Wasser Anteils.
Michael Hierholzer: Die schmecken nach Gurken.
William Holden: Ist ja widerlich, die muss man dann salzen?
Wonge Bergmann: [lacht]
Michael Hierholzer: Na, Sie können ja auch Erdbeeren pfeffern und salzen, geht ja auch. Schmeckt auch hervorragend.
Wonge Bergmann: Schmeckt super.
Michael Hierholzer: Schmeckt sehr gut.
William Holden: Das macht mich spontan skeptisch. Aber hat das was mit dem Beruf zu tun? Mit dem Herrn Dr. Arning hab ich mich gestern auch über Kochrezepte unterhalten…
Michael Hierholzer: Interessant… ach so … na, wie gesagt Arning ist ja unglaublich interessiert, an allem…
William Holden: Das war so der Ice-Breaker…
Michael Hierholzer: Wahrscheinlich dann auch an Kochen, ja … Also ich koch' ganz gern, wenn ich mal Zeit dazu hab.
William Holden: Ja, hin und wieder tu ich das auch.
[… ]

Im weiteren Verlauf des Interviews redeten wir unter anderem über Hermann Hesse, Bertolt Brecht, Herrn Daschner und das jüdische Leben in Frankfurt. Hören sie das ganze Gespräch hier als Audio-Blog:

1

http://williamholdeninfrankfurt.org/files/audio/HoldenFAZ1.mp3
Ich hab jetzt über Sie gelesen in Wikipedia, dass Sie 1982 schon gestorben sind. Ist dass nicht ein bisschen ein Problem für Sie?
I have read about you in Wikipedia. You died in 1982. Is that a problem for you?

2

http://williamholdeninfrankfurt.org/files/audio/HoldenFAZ2.mp3
Über Kippenberger, Aggression und darüber dass es „hier viel mehr sympathische Menschen gibt als man denkt“.
About Martin Kippenberger, aggression and the fact that "people are a lot nicer that one might think".

3

http://williamholdeninfrankfurt.org/files/audio/HoldenFAZ3.mp3
Das Adorno Denkmal, die Hacke, die Besetzung der Schauspielbühne durch die Mitglieder der jüdischen Gemeinde und andere Kulturskandale. Oder: Das Theater in Frankfurt.
The Adorno monument, the Hacke (?), the occupation of the theater stage by members of the Jewish community and other cultural scandals, or: Theater in Frankfurt.

4

http://williamholdeninfrankfurt.org/files/audio/HoldenFAZ4.mp3
Frankfurter Architektur, Frankfurter in der Diaspora hängen an ihren Nahrungsmitteln, oder: Die Scham in Stolz verwandeln.
About Frankfurt architecture, about how Frankfurt citizens abroad keep being addicted to traditional Frankfurt food, or: How to change shame into pride.

5

http://williamholdeninfrankfurt.org/files/audio/HoldenFAZ5.mp3
My Zeil, das kleine Arschloch und die unterdrückte sexuelle Energie. Kollegen fotografiert man nicht.
My Zeil (Frankfurt main shopping street), the little asshole and the repressed sexual energy. One should never take photographs of colleagues.

6

http://williamholdeninfrankfurt.org/files/audio/HoldenFAZ6.mp3
My Holden, Erdnüsse und die große Inflation in 4 bis fünf Jahren. Mein Haus kostet 99 Euro.
Kommunisten tragen keine Krawatten.
My Holden, peanuts and the big inflation in the next four or five years. The rent of my house was 99 Euros. Communists don't wear ties.

7

http://williamholdeninfrankfurt.org/files/audio/HoldenFAZ7.mp3
Der Daschner ist ein Spitzen-Typ und Frankfurt ist auch liberal. „Ich war in Bagdad und hab den Schuh geworfen“ – Journalisten-Ethik – Angehen gegen die Oberflächlichkeit.
Wolfgang Daschner is a cool guy and Frankfurt is a tolerant town. "I was in Bagdad and I threw that shoe" - The meaning of ethics in journalism. How to deal with superficiality.

8

http://williamholdeninfrankfurt.org/files/audio/HoldenFAZ8.mp3

Fachbegriff aus alten Zeiten: Witwen schütteln, Stefanie Zweig, und jüdisches Leben in Frankfurt. Frankfurter sind stolz darauf keine Antisemiten zu sein. Ardono war hier zu Hause, der liebte das.
Technical terms from old times; widow shaking, Stefanie Zweig, and Jewish life in Frankfurt. Frankfurt citizens are proud of not being antisemites. Adorno felt at home here, and he loved it.

9

http://williamholdeninfrankfurt.org/files/audio/HoldenFAZ9.mp3
Brecht, Jean Jourdheuille, Tom Stromberg (der Frankfurt zum Zentrum der Postmoderne gemacht hat). Ritsaert Ten Cate, Wolfgang Wiens, Claus Peymann: Drei Männern und ihre Theaterbegeisterung.
Brecht, Jean Jourdheuille, Tom Stromberg (who turned Frankfurt into the centre of Postmodernism). Ritsaert Ten Cate, Wolfgang Wiens, Claus Peymann: three men speak about their enthousiasm for theater.

10

http://williamholdeninfrankfurt.org/files/audio/HoldenFAZ10.mp3
Städel, Schirn und Liebighaus. Die Schirn war nah daran zu gemacht zu werden. Die Bürgerliche Tradition in Frankfurt. Das Gespräch verliert sich während eines Telefonats.
Städel, Schirn und Liebighaus. The bourgeois tradition in Frankfurt. The conversation ends because of a phone call.



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